[MAonly] MA Only Pulse Poll Results

[Jim Cherney]

Hi Bob,

That's very good news, and I want to stress that the results I found 
very well may be localized.  The programs where I saw most of these 
tendencies were Indiana U (my alma mater), Iowa, Ohio U, Northwestern, 
and Kent State.  [3 of the remaining schools in my sample were MA-Only 
-- Arkansas, Auburn, and Alabama -- and I did not see any evidence of 
these tendencies at Penn State.]

I also know that we have found it difficult to place some of our MA 
students in recent years.  Since 2003, of the 7 in our Speech 
Communication MAs who were serious candidates for PhD programs, only 3 
have made it in to programs.  From faculty who have been here for a 
while, I have learned that 3 of 7 is a low rate for our program, which 
did not change substantially over that time period.  I know that at 
least one of those three is not at one of the student's top choice 
schools.  2 of those who did not make it in have taken short term 
positions in the hopes of trying again later, and I am interested to see 
how that works out.

 From what others have already told me, it appears that some programs 
(Minnesota and Georgia have been specifically named) remain committed to 
bringing in good MA students, which is a good sign.  Bob's experience -- 
far more extensive than mine -- is also positive.  I certainly don't 
think it's time to panic.

What concerned me most was that the tendencies that I noted all seemed 
recent developments, as if they indicated a shift in the zeitgeist. 
IU's changes (they dropped the MA thesis, and they increased the number 
of students coming in with a BA) were within the last few years.  Ohio 
U's new program (which only gives the MA to those who fail their mid 
program comps) started this year.  Similarly, the changes at Iowa, 
Northwestern, and Kent State all happened recently.  At the same time, 
Miami saw an increasing difficulty to place quality students in PhD. 
programs.  This could all be a coincidence; my concern is that it may 
not be.  As we sail upon the good favor of the PhD granting 
institutions, we should prudently search for any indication of a change 
in the weather.

Later,
jim


krizekrl wrote:
> Jim
> 
> Thank you for distributing these results.  They will be very
> beneficial as we (any of us) go forward with changes and/or
> refinements to our programs. And thanks to all of you for a
> wonderful and productive short course.
> 
> Also, I appreciate your comments regarding PhD programs and
> their propensity to dislike students from MA only programs;
> however,I honestly have not found that to be the case.  Over
> the past five years we (Saint Louis University) have been
> able to place every student in our program who has wanted to
> go on for a PHD in one of their top choices.
> 
> We have students from our MA program at:
> 
> Penn State
> South Florida
> Arizona State
> Colorado Boulder
> North Carolina
> Iowa
> Bowling Green
> Oregon
> Maryland
> 
> This year we anticipate students being accepted at Texas
> A&M, Univ of Missouri, and Arizona State.
> 
> So while I think that a number of your points are
> legitimate, I have not seen the discrimination against our
> students.  I would like to hear from more of you on this
> issue.  Maybe we can determine what it is that some of our
> programs are doing (or not doing)that might help all of us.
> 
> Bob Krizek
> 
> 
>>Thanks, Emmett, for raising this topic.
>>
>>I want to start by giving some context for my concern.
>>What I noticed  when researching MA and PhD programs this
>>summer was that there was "an  increasing tendency" to
>>encourage students to enter their programs with  BA
>>degrees.  Some schools (such as Ohio University) have
>>essentially  done away with the MA, except to give it to
>>students who fail to pass  their second year qualifying
>>exams (as a consolation prize, if you  will).  Others have
>>indicated that they find it more convenient (and
>>economical) to bring in BA's, give them the specific
>>training they will  need for that PhD program, and then
>>expect those students to remain for  the completion of the
>>PhD.  What I noticed was not a simple "dislike"  for
>>students from MA-Only programs, but rather a tendency to
>>ask: if  this is a serious student, why did she or he not
>>simply go to a good PhD  program straight out of the BA
>>granting institution?
>>
>>In short, there seems to be a tendency to move away from
>>previous  assumptions about the MA-Only program that poses
>>questions for MA-Only  schools, especially if they see PhD
>>prep as their primary mission.  I'll  detail these.
>>
>>First, the "conventional wisdom" that students are best
>>served by being  at different schools for their MA and PhD
>>(for reasons of breadth and  diversity) seems inoperative.
>> The efficiency issue (students who stay  at the PhD
>>program for both their MA and PhD are believed -- perhaps
>>inaccurately -- to complete their programs in a more
>>timely manner)  seems to outweigh the value of this kind
>>of diversity and breadth.
>>
>>Second, PhD programs appear to increasingly consider
>>MA-Only programs as  prinicipally offering terminal
>>degrees to students who (for whatever  reason) are unable
>>to qualify or enter PhD granting programs after they  get
>>their BA.
>>
>>Third, PhD programs in communication have become
>>increasingly  specialized, making it difficult for
>>students from generalist MA-Only  programs to enter at the
>>MA level and work with/compete with the  students who have
>>been at that institution since their BA.
>>
>>Fourth, PhD programs are moving away from the MA thesis
>>model (replacing  it with rather developed comprehensive
>>exams), which both increases the  efficiency of getting BA
>>students through the program and means that  they are not
>>as impressed with the MA theses of students from MA-Only
>>schools.  Unfortunately, they seem even less impressed
>>with students who  go to an MA-Only school and do *not*
>>complete a thesis, suggesting that  the thesis work of
>>students from MA-Only schools has simply been devalued.
>>
>>Fifth, PhD programs appear increasingly interested in
>>having high GRE  scores, and at least some will not waive
>>these requirements even if a  student had performed well
>>at a MA-Only school.  I'm under the  impression that the
>>MA-Only school used to be considered an appropriate
>>transition point/proving ground for students with
>>potential but poor GRE  scores.  Such unwavering GRE
>>requirements (often instituted by the  Graduate Schools --
>>not the individual departments) reduce the ability  of
>>MA-Only schools to perform this function.
>>
>>I want to stress that these tendencies may be localized to
>>a few  programs.  I did not perform anything close to a
>>general survey of the  PhD granting institutions in
>>communication, and only spoke to  representatives at 9
>>schools.  I strongly endorse the idea that we  encourage
>>NCA to at least help support such a survey.  I myself am a
>>critical or productive rhetorician, and do not specialize
>>in such  research (my pulse poll, I believe, demonstrated
>>my inexperience as a  surveyor!), but I would be happy to
>>help construct questions for such an  instrument.
>>
>>Later,
>>jim cherney
>>Miami of Ohio
>>
>>J. Emmett Winn wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Dear Jim:
>>>cc: ALL
>>>
>>>Thanks so much for sending this to us.  It is going to
>>>be very  helpful.  Also, regardless of how we go forward
>>>with our plans--I  think that Jim's point about top PhD
>>>schools not wanting MA-only  students should be at the
>>>top of our list of concerns.  Thanks Jim for  bringing
>>> that to our attention.
>>>Cheers,
>>>Emmett
>>>
>>
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